In this episode of Status Check with Spivey, Spivey J.D. admissions consultants Danielle Early (former Associate Director of Admissions at Harvard Law School and military/veteran admissions specialist) and Mike Burns (former Director of Admissions & Financial Aid at Northwestern Law and Navy veteran) interview Brian Henson, a former consulting client of Danielle's, Navy Intelligence Officer, Service to School mentor, Harvard Law Armed Forces Association president, and recent HLS graduate. They discuss Brian's story of applying to law school from the middle of the ocean on an aircraft carrier and his experiences as a veteran at HLS, plus insights into admissions and legal education specifically targeted at military veterans and those on active duty.
What considerations should military applicants keep in mind that differ from non-military applicants? What is the adjustment like moving from the military to law school? What sorts of admissions resources are available for military members and veterans? What are common pieces of misinformation that military applicants may encounter, and what's the true story? They cover these topics and more, including admissions for enlisted soldiers vs. officers (29:36), getting letters of recommendation from supervisors/commanders (36:44), application timing (5:28 and 21:51), resumes (43:36), personal statements (46:08), determining your chances and making a school list (31:51), job search advice (1:03:42), and more.
You can listen and subscribe to Status Check with Spivey on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. You can read a full transcript of this episode with timestamps below.
Full Transcript:
[0:08] Danielle: Welcome to Status Check with Spivey, and a big welcome to the military service members who are listening in today. Here at the Spivey Consulting Group, we are committed to helping increase diversity in law schools and in the legal community, and we think that veterans bring an amazing perspective to that community. Veterans are often non-traditional applicants to law schools, and as such, there are some pieces of their process that just don't follow the advice we often give for the larger applicant pool—the answers for them have a few more nuances. So today's podcast is especially focused on this small section of the applicant pool.
My name is Danielle Early, and I am a partner here at the Spivey Consulting Group. I used to work at Harvard Law School in their admissions office, and I am joined today by two of my favorite people. One of them is my colleague, Mike Burns, who I'm going to have introduce himself right now, and then I'll introduce you to our other surprise guest in a moment. Mike?
[0:56] Mike: Fantastic. Thank you. So I am Mike Burns. I am one of the consultants at Spivey Consulting Group. I have about 30 years of experience as admissions director, assistant dean, associate dean, and I've worked at four different schools. Over the years, I've read about 50,000 applications for admission. I joined the USNR, the Naval Reserve, when I was 18 years old, was having a bad day in college, and I ran into a chief petty officer in the hallway who made me think about joining. And I enlisted at 18, spent about one year on active duty for training primarily, and then served in the reserve for six years. I'm super excited about this. Thank you, Danielle.
Danielle: And lastly, we have a special guest, Brian Henson, a recent Harvard Law School graduate who is generously taking time away from studying for the bar exam to help share his experience of applying to and attending and graduating from law school. Hi, Brian!
Brian: Hi Danielle, hi Mike! Great to join you guys.
Danielle: So what we're going to do today in our conversation is, we're going to start off by letting Brian tell us a bit about his experience, and then we're going to jump into advice that all three of us have for applicants who are heading to law school, going through this process. We did a survey of some of our clients and some people that we know about, what are some of the big questions that they have? So we're going to jump into that in the second half of this podcast.
But to start with, Brian, you and I first chatted back in 2020 when you were still in the Navy. We actually finally got the chance to meet in person this spring for the first time. So it took us about five years though. I'm wondering, can you walk us through a little bit of your history at the Navy before you even start in on your law school life?
[2:38] Brian: Absolutely. So, I'll give you a little bit about generally my background. So California kid, born and raised. Went to a state school out in California for my undergrad. Spent a year post-grad working for a civil rights nonprofit in Washington, D.C., as a policy analyst. I enlisted in the Navy in January of 2017 and spent about 18 months as an enlisted sailor, and then commissioned as an intelligence officer in the summer of 2018 and spent four years on active duty as an intelligence officer, mostly stationed in D.C., although I had a eight-month deployment to the Western Pacific on an aircraft carrier, conveniently at the same time as I was applying to law school. So that presented some interesting experiences in the law school application cycle. And then got out in June of 2022 to start transitioning to come to law school, and then have continued to serve as a Navy Reserve intelligence officer while also still in law school.
Danielle: Alright. Big question: What made you think about getting out to go to law school? Although you only half got out if you're still in the reserves at this point.
Brian: Yeah, no, very fair observation. I like to say it came from two places. I think it came from, no one in my family had joined the military. It was not something that I thought was necessarily going to be a career. I knew I was going to try it, and I've loved it, which is why I've stuck around the reserves. So there were really two sorts of experiences that led me to thinking about law school. One that occurred actually before the military and then one while I was in the military.
Before I joined the military, I was working for the nation's largest Latino civil rights nonprofit. There were a lot of experiences that I had where working for a nonprofit, you can kind of see the value of lawyers. I mean that in the sense that, like, you try and get signatures on a petition or try and work to advance some sort of legislation that you really care about, you oftentimes ran into lawyers who were on the other side who were poking holes in your argument or advocating, you know, against your side. And so I think that that was a really powerful example of the power of lawyers, and so that was kind of stuck in my brain.
And then I joined the military. And the other example that I experienced was on deployment. For example, when our adversaries were violating international law, we weren't responding with guns and missiles. We were responding by having our folks go up to the bridge to take photos of the violations of law to push up to the United Nations. Like, it was very law-based, and I think that I, from both a domestic and an international perspective, got to see the value of lawyers and law and how impactful it can be, and what tools in your toolbox going to law school can give you. And so that was kind of the point where I said, hey—I think when you and I had met Danielle, I was still kind of kicking around the idea—but it was those sorts of experiences that really made me say, "Hey, no, this is a route that I think I want to take."
I think the point to take away is that it was not something that I thought of years and years before. It was something that kind of developed while I was in the military and then led me to transition out.
[5:28] Danielle: Awesome. How long after realizing it was what you wanted to do was it before you were actually in law school?
Brian: I think it was around the summer of 2021, which was around application time. I had started to do some of the preparation but wasn't exactly positive, but it was maybe 15 months, I want to say. Not very long between the time where I said, "Hey, no, we're going to commit to this path," and then starting in September of 2022. So it would've been June '21 to September of 2022.
Danielle: I think it's helpful for people to realize how short of an amount of time it can take, and also how long they should plan in. So we are going to talk about how to build a good on-ramp when we get into our advice for people later.
So you applied. You ended up at HLS. I would love to know a little bit about the experience of being there. What were some of the big things for you that you wanted to let people know about what it's like being a law student?
Brian: I mean, I think that it was obviously a big transition and will be for anyone who's coming from the military world to being back as a student, especially a full-time student. I thought it was fantastic. I felt like I appreciated the experience in the classroom so much more because I would always tell my colleagues, this time last year, like, I was trying to sleep with fighter jets taking off over me, and like, I sometimes had to go a week without vegetables because the resupply ship didn't come in time. So like, by comparison, like, I'm doing great, I'm really enjoying this. It allowed me to kind of really delve into what we were learning about in a much more comprehensive way and from a different perspective, and so I thought that was really, really cool.
I would say, some of the things that I always tell people is, don't be afraid to reinvent yourself, and don't be afraid to kind of explore new interests. I think it's really easy as a military service member to come in, like you have these experiences, people will be asking you questions about like, there's such an obvious pipeline into national security law, people will always ask like, "Are you going to be a JAG?" and I think that can sometimes lead people to say, "This is naturally what I should do."
[7:13] But I think the cool thing about, you know, my experience in law school was, so many of my peers had something else. I think we'll talk a little bit more about this when it comes time for application stuff, but it was really cool to see people who were EOD officers really focused in, like, healthcare policy or Army Special Forces folks who are then interested in, like, technology and IP litigation.
And so I think you have to make the conscious choice when you come in to really give yourself the opportunity to lean on what you're comfortable with, but then also be willing to be uncomfortable and venture out and explore these new spaces, because that's what law school is. It's three years for you to kind of figure out new interests, and maybe your interests are the conventional national security routes, but maybe they're not. And so I think that always something I tell people.
And then also, this is a little bit more of like student lifestyle stuff, but just remember that you're a student again, and the people in your classes are your peers, and they're there for the same reasons you are, and there's going to be age differences and life experience differences and all those different situations, but that's what makes it fun. Some of my absolute best friends were 22 when they matriculated to law school. And that's just one of the cool things is you get such a wide range of experiences. You don't have to be this hard-charging military veteran; you can just be Brian, the law student, who also was in the military.
Danielle: Great advice.
Brian: Those are two pieces of advice I always try and give people, especially military vets as they're thinking about transitioning out.
Danielle: Are there any things that you would suggest a veteran does to make the most of their time in law school? Are there any organizations, are there any things that you think people should really take advantage of while they're in law school, especially if they're a veteran?
Brian: Yeah, I mean, I think that there's so many student organizations. I think finding what you're interested in, I think it's important to find a nice balance between the things you're passionate about, so student organizations that relate to your professional interests. You have a whole spectrum of how much you can kind of lean into your military identity when you're in law school, and I talked a little bit about that in the previous question, but I think regardless, it's helpful to join whatever veterans affinity group is there, just for some perspective and some grounding and to help ease the transition out of the military. But I think military vets have a unique sort of ability, because they're older and because they're seen sometimes as students with, like, kind of an asterisk by professors and administration, because military veterans are known as probably a little bit more mature than your traditional 22-year-old—obviously, there are exceptions on that—but like, your professors are willing to unlock with you a little bit more,administration's willing to unlock with you a little bit more, and so you can be more outgoing and have that play to your favor. And so I always say, like, to the extent that you can, being willing to like hit the ground running and explore new interests and meet new people, you will be at an advantage to the extent you're able to do that when you get to law school.
[9:56] Danielle: That's great advice. Alright, when you got to law school, you had prepared yourself in a lot of different ways, but you were also imagining, what is it going to be like? What turned out to be easier than you were expecting?
Brian: I think it was easier to keep things in perspective. I came in, it's a very daunting experience to transition back to the classroom. Everyone always talks about, "Oh, law school's going to be really difficult and it's a challenge," and like, there's a lot of stereotypes about the law school experience. But I found that the skills and experiences that I had had on active duty really helped prepare me to be able to say, "Okay, yeah, I might not understand this case," or, "Yeah, I might have flubbed that cold call, but like, it's not the end of the world."
I think the military is really, really good at two things that are relevant. I think the first thing is, it objectively makes you really used to getting brutal criticism and feedback. Like, military service members are brutally honest with one another, and I messed up plenty of answers, plenty of cold calls my first semester, and I went home and thought about it and kind of was able to process it in the mindset of like, "Okay, someone yelled at me, like, that happened every single day for the past five and a half years. This is not affecting my final grade. This is not going on any sort of permanent record. Like, okay. We're okay." And that really helped in a school environment, where so much of the stress comes from sort of your experience and how you're performing on those sorts of things. It really enabled me to kind of be like, "Okay, I can enjoy my experience here because I know what the main things are," right? The main things are doing well in the classroom, doing well on exams, and making really good professional connections, and I can do those things, and there will be some things along the way that my peers might really stress out about, but because I have had kind of life experience, it's okay.
And the other thing that is really helpful is, the military is really good at showing you what, on a broad spectrum of, like, how much things can suck. The military's really good at showing you the full spectrum of that. So if I have to read a case that I don't really understand, it's like in the mid-1800s and like kind of sucks, okay, that's great, but I'm not having to like chip paint off a parking curb just for the sake of chipping paint off a parking curb, which is an experience that I had. You know, so like, it really helps give you a greater appreciation for what you have and the experiences that you're there to take on. And so I came in thinking that I was going to succumb to a lot of the stress from law school, and then got there and found myself actually really enjoying the experience, and I don't think that there was anything unique about me, other than being a military service member, that makes my experience any different than what any other military service member could have when they come to law school.
[12:24] Danielle: Awesome. Alright, so the opposite question of that, what took you by surprise? What was hard transitioning into law school after your naval career that you didn't expect to be so hard?
Brian: The common answer is always like, how do you deal with the transition of coming out of the military? Just generally like reacclimating to civilian life. I actually didn't experience too much of that, and I'll talk a little bit more later about why I think that's the case. But one thing that I really wasn't expecting is just, I was 29 when I came to law school, like I had other life obligations, like just by the nature of being a little bit older, right? I had a condominium in DC that like I had purchased with a VA law and like had to deal with. I was still in the reserves. Those sorts of obligations, having to balance school with that.
I didn't have a family, but a lot of my peers did. Having to balance, dealing with classes, with raising kids, and still having to get your obligations done maybe with fewer hours than your peers have, I think, is a bit of a challenge. When I was an undergrad, my whole life was focused on undergrad, and I think that I came to law school kind of thinking I could do the same thing, and it didn't work out quite the same way.
So I think it took a couple months to really understand, "Okay, where does law school fit into my life?" Knowing that it was not going to be able to be the whole thing for the next three years and how to manage that and how to work around some of the challenges that maybe my peers weren't facing.
Danielle: I think that's a really good point. When we talk about veterans being non-traditional applicants, they also are non-traditional students while they're there, and quite often they are balancing getting home to put their kids to bed before they miss them for the day or something like that. I know when I was at HLS, there were a couple of different organizations that I would point, especially those types of veterans to. One was the Armed Forces Organization because I felt like that was a group of people who understood where you were coming from in a great way.
At that point, we also had a organization that I think they called OWLS, Older, Wiser Law Students Organization, and then there was also a parents organization. But I'm going to throw out there, you know, if you are listening to this right now and you do have a family that's going to come with you, there are others like you, and finding them, finding support can be available for so many different ways, but try to look for them before you even show up on campus.
Brian: Yeah, and I would add to that. I think that's 100% great advice. And I would add, even if you're just applying, I would recommend all those student organizations at all the schools are all going to have websites and social media presence. Reaching out to those organizations ahead of time as you're in the application process to ask, to speak to current students about what resources are available really can help you kind of fill that gap.
It's a little bit of a black box in the application cycle, but it doesn't have to be. And so you can really use the resources, the student organizations that are there to your advantage by having conversations ahead of time in the application process to really start to understand what resources are and are not available at each of the schools you're thinking about applying to.
Danielle: Great advice.
[15:18] Mike: Something I thought about, Brian, as you were talking is I thought about my experience at the last school I was at where I think one of the things that was sort of surprising to students with prior service coming in was they would sort of joke about what they perceived as the immaturity of some of their classmates and they really valued those meetings that they had together because they thought they were with a group of people that were sort of like-minded and had similar experiences. How did you experience your maybe younger classmates that had less worldly and life experience?
Brian: Yeah, I think that's a great question. I was actually just talking with a friend about this last night. I think you get a whole range of experiences. Not that Harvard Law School needs a plug, but I think one of the things that Harvard Law School did really well was their selection of younger students.
By and large, the students had a lot of perspective and experience and carried themselves a lot older. And so I don't think I was expecting to have as many straight through undergrad friends as I wound up having, which is a really funny sort of thing to take away. When I've been in situations where that hasn't always been the case, I think it's always been important to kind of just keep things in perspective when you're in the classroom.
I think there's a really big difference between folks who are inside the classroom and then those same folks outside the classroom. So I had a lot of experiences where I would be having these like really intellectually stimulating debates in the classroom about a case, going back and forth with someone from across the room, arguing the merits of what the holding was or whatever we were talking about in class.
And then we would step out of class and they would say something about like, "Oh, I'm having trouble figuring out what to do about my landlord because of some issue." And you're like, "Oh, yeah, you're like in a different stage of life than I am." And like those things are, especially your first couple weeks, like a little bit sort of like, "Oh, right, I have to think about things kind of in two lights, where like in the classroom they're my peers and they've earned their seat just like I have. The law school selected them to be in this seat because of some of their experiences, so I can learn a lot from them, and also, I can pick and choose my spots and how I want to associate with people outside the classroom."
But I think it's really easy for veterans to kind of walk in with, I don't want to say an air of just superiority, but it can be really easy to say, "Oh, that person's really young. I don't know if I trust their perspective." You still have to think critically. Like there are some things that anyone is going to say that might not be fully grounded in experience, but there will be some that people will blow you away with how knowledgeable and sage their perspective is that kind of belies how old they are, and so it's really important to not throw those situations out and to still learn from your peers.
Because I'll tell you, my experience walking away from the past three years, I learned just as much, and I mean this sincerely, I learned just as much from my peers as I did from the cases that I learned in the classroom, and I think that that is attainable for anyone, but really adds a level of richness to your law school experience, but that only occurred because I was able to look at folks and say, "Hey, I'm going to hear what you're saying and analyze it that way and not factor in sort of your age or your maturity level."
[18:18] Danielle: So I want to transition now from Brian's specific story about his pathway to his career in law and start talking a bit about advice that we have for people who are about to start this process. So before I do that, I want to mention that one of the reasons we asked Brian to join us today and tell his story is because he's actually been working as a mentor with Service to School for a while now. It's a wonderful nonprofit that offers free application guidance for vets heading to schools, undergrad and grad school as well.
So in addition to having gone through the process himself, he's helped a number of other service members apply to law school over the past few years. And as such, he's been hit with just as many questions as Mike and I have. I am looking forward to hearing both Brian and Mike give some advice, speaking both as veterans, law school grads, and advisors to applicants. So are I want to start with some things about the application process. Before we jump into specific questions that I was asked to ask you all, what are some of the myths or the big misinformation that you tend to encounter when veterans are engaging in their admissions process that you just want to dispel from the start of this conversation?
Brian: The first one is a little bit more technical. It's that you have to apply with the LSAT. I think military vets oftentimes feel like the LSAT's the only way, and I can tell you from personal experience, as someone who applied with the GRE, that that's not necessarily required, and I think that that's always an option that—especially for service academy grads who had a more quant-heavy undergrad education might want to look to as they're thinking about applying. So that's a more technical piece of advice.
Danielle: There are a couple of schools out there that still aren't taking the GRE, so it is an option, but if there's a particular school that you're super excited about, just double-check it. But for the most part, you're right, schools are taking the GRE along with the LSAT at this point, so just do your due diligence first. Alright. What was your second thing there, Brian?
Brian: I think this is generally a theme throughout the application process, but I can tell you, don't count yourself out. I'll say this a bunch more throughout the podcast, but like, you have as good of a shot as anyone to wind up at whatever school you have your heart set on, and being a military veteran opens up a lot of doors. And so you want to be smart about applying and about preparing your application and doing that thoroughly, but you are going to have great opportunities coming out of that, so don't undersell yourself.
[20:43] Danielle: Awesome. Mike, are there any myths that you want to dispel from the start?
Mike: Yeah. I kind of have a little bit of a different take on it. It's not quite a myth, but in my experience, a lot of prior service members, veterans, just don't have the knowledge about what law school is and why it's important to consider certain law schools and why the reputation is important and why it matters where you go to law school.
So in my experience, it's just sort of a general kind of lack of an understanding about law school generally. I've had conversations with veterans and former service members who would come in just sort of dead set on a specific regional law school because that's the law school that they know another veteran went to, and that's what they're focused on, and sort of common beliefs. Like it doesn't matter where you go to law school, because they heard that somewhere.
It's just a lot of misunderstandings because perhaps they earn credits through a service school and graduated with a non-traditional path where they didn't have a pre-law advisor. It's really kind of going back and just making sure that they have a basic understanding of how law school works.
Danielle: So one of the big questions that people often hit us with is, when should I start this process? And, Brian, we alluded to that earlier when we were talking about your process. But if you had to give people advice for an on-ramp of timing, how long do you think they should be giving themselves to do this before their discharge date?
Because I will also tell you, I have worked with a number of people, both when I was an admissions officer at Harvard and then since then where turns out their discharge date is going to mean that they can't actually enroll in the fall that they wanted to. So what advice would you give people about how much time to give themselves, not only for studying for the LSAT and all of that different stuff, and doing the application, but just on the organizing the process of removing yourself from your service.
[22:38] Mike: I think it's really important for service members, veterans, and all applicants, just to understand that this application process is probably going to be longer than they originally thought it was going to be. Most applicants begin applying to law school about a year in advance of when they actually are going to be starting law school. It's kind of looking at, when do you expect to enter law school? And most law schools only have a fall entrance.
Then backing that up, knowing what you have to do to complete your application. Taking the LSAT, getting letters of recommendation, knowing that the LSAT is only offered during certain months depending on your deployment or where you're serving. Are you going to have access to the LSATs on the advertised dates, or is it going to be different dates? So it's really looking kind of far back, beginning with where you think you'd like to start, and then thinking about when is the LSAT going to be available to you, depending on where you are. And then backing that up, giving yourself perhaps a few months of preparation for the LSAT.
So really sitting down, putting that on paper, planning that out. It might help you decide whether, yes, I can apply for admissions in the next cycle, or because of the time that this takes, I'm probably going to be looking at admission in not this upcoming cycle, but the next cycle.
Brian: The only thing I would add is that, if you're listening to this podcast, you are probably someone who is thinking on a longer timeline. And so I'm going to add this piece, kind of with the assumption that you have a couple years or a little bit longer in your application cycle. And if that's the case, if your contract doesn't end for a couple years, try and think about which duty stations and which assignments are going to be more labor-intensive, whether you're going to be deployed, whether you're going to be standing watch on a night shift, and realize, you know, you want to be applying and doing the study for the LSAT and putting some of the application materials together, but really studying for the LSAT or the GRE in a time when you have more stability.
And so really being strategic about some of the standardized tests are good for five years. Like I was working mostly a desk job first while I was thinking about applying to law school. And then I had a deployment, I had an assign where I knew I was going to deploy. And so I studied for the LSAT and the GRE. I ended up using the GRE while I was working the desk job, knowing that the deployment was coming, so that way, I could kind of get it out of the way.
And so if you have the ability to think strategically, like it's going to be really, really hard to study for the LSAT or the GRE coming off of a 12-hour watch or being on a ship or all those things. And so if you have the flexibility, your lifestyle is going to be much more topsy-turvy, I think, than the average applicant. And so to the extent that you can build in, doing some of the heavy lifting at a period of time when you're not going to be asked to also be working 12, 14-hour shifts doing it at whatever it is you do in the military, I think you're going to be better off for it.
[25:37] Danielle: I am going to throw in another little comment on that from my experience working with Brian, which is you can apply while you're on deployment, but give yourself a lot more time to do it. I am currently working with another client who is on deployment, and he disappears for weeks at a time because of where he is and what he's doing and circumstances that exist in this world right now.
So if are going to be deployed during your application cycle, that's okay. You can do it. Just don't expect that you're actually going to know what your schedule is like and give yourself enough time to actually work through all the parts of the application. This was great advice, and I think there's a lot of things that go into it that are incredibly helpful.
A lot of times, our military members who come and chat with me will be a little bit confused by the fact that law school applications have a deadline, but we say, "Hey, apply early in the cycle." Can you talk a little bit about the value of that, especially for those candidates that their numbers may not be above what the school is saying is their medians or something like that? They might be a stretch academically for that school.
Mike: I could never figure out why so many applicants apply at the deadline. Then, you know, I think some applicants maybe see that's the goal or the ideal date. Clearly someone who hasn't had advising from someone. It's really important to apply early in an admission cycle because law schools have a rolling admissions process. Most law school applications open up in the fall. Typically, September 1, they begin receiving applications at that time, and a regular decision process, they'll collect those applications and then maybe sometime after the holidays in January in their regular decision process, they'll start reviewing those applications and admitting students.
Sometimes they will read them in a queue in which they're reviewing applications based upon when those applicants completed those applications. Once law school begins to read applications, they begin issuing admissions decisions. They begin admitting students. So if you're applying to a law school that has 200 seats, at the end of January, they may have 150 seats left in their entering class because they've been admitting students.
It has the potential for the process to become more selective and for admissions to be more competitive when you're applying later. I won't name any schools, but I worked at law schools where the class was full before the application deadline, which I know sounds crazy to students, but strong applications came in very early in the process. We admitted strong applications, and then we just realized that we had given out as many offers of admission as we were comfortable giving. So no matter how strong you were, if you applied later, the best you could be would be to be waitlisted.
So it's really important, if you want full consideration, both for admissions and for potentially scholarships. Some law schools also award scholarships upon admission, and when the money's gone, the money's just gone. So they just simply may not have additional money to award, even though you may have been awarded money had you applied earlier in the process. Something else I think that admission officers know is when someone is a very late applicant, then they may have fewer choices because they are a late applicant. They may require less scholarship incentive to enroll that person, and would have just been eligible for more money had they applied earlier.
[29:04] Danielle: That's such a great point, Mike, about scholarships. Oftentimes, when I'm speaking to a service member, they're coming in with benefits that are going to help them pay for law school. That does not mean that you want to ignore all of the scholarships that might be out there, because some of them come with grant opportunities and stipends for winter opportunity, or it might come with specific mentorship, things that go along with it. Not all of the merit scholarships do that, but don't ignore the opportunities that might be there just because you have service benefits that you're thinking are going to pay for tuition anyway.
I want to jump over to another question that we had given to us, which is about there is a stereotype that top schools are looking only for officers, and I want you guys to talk a little bit about that. At first, is it true, and should enlisted service members be looking at a different type of school than officers should be?
Brian: I cannot stress enough how much signaling I got from Harvard's admissions team that they are looking for enlisted service members just as hard, if not harder, than officers. And the reason for that is because enlisted service members, I think, disproportionately are self-selecting out, and I think there's a reason for that. I think that if you're in the military, there's a a bit of a survivorship bias in who you're getting advice from. The requirements for what makes a successful military career are much more, when it comes to the education component, are much more binary.
So it's much more like if you're getting advice from someone who's been in for 20 years, especially as an enlisted service member, you might be talking to someone who doesn't have a college degree, let alone a law school degree, or know anyone who goes that route. And so they may tell you, if you're an enlisted service member, you're only seeing officers going to the top school. So you assume that that's all they care about. And that leads enlisted service members to say, "Well, I should look at a local school or a regional school."
And if that's what you want for your law career, like, great. There's no shade on that at all. But if you're looking to apply broadly, then you 100% should not count yourself out, and you'll bring different skills and experiences than officers do. I served as the president of the Harvard Law's Armed Forces Association. I would get questions all the time from folks about, "Why should I even apply? Because clearly, Harvard Law is only looking for officers."
And I can't tell you how false that is and how important it is to look beyond, law schools are not going to care about rank. They're not going to care about enlisted versus officer. They care about, can you tell your story, and are you going to be a good contributor to a classroom sort of environment and a law school environment? And enlisted service members are some of the best fits for law schools, no matter what the rank is or where it's located or anything like that.
[31:42] Danielle: That is great advice, and it's a message that needs to get out much wider. So I'm glad we're saying it here. I do worry sometimes that vets are getting advice that is pointing them in the wrong direction. I think another thing is that they'll look for likelihoods of admission, and most of the online resources that you will use are looking at your LSAT score and your GPA, and they're not taking into consideration other aspects of that. I'm wondering, Mike, can you talk a little bit about how vets impact diversity at schools and what that means for somebody who might be below medians or have very low prediction rates for admission?
Mike: Sure. So I will start off by saying that, yes, law schools do care a lot about LSAT and GPA. Those medians are real and they're important for them. But whenever I would talk to someone who would say, "I'm not sure whether I should apply to that law school because my LSAT is below their median," I would have a basic conversation about statistics and medians with them and let them know that that only means that about half of their law students don't have that median score.
So law schools do, in fact, care about a number of other things. Diversity is really important to law schools, and I know sometimes people see that word and they think that it's just fluff and it's not real, but law schools care a lot about diversity. You know, as we just heard, as Brian said, he said he probably learned more from his classmates than from others at the law school. In a law school, in a law school classroom, at least in many of them, you are hearing from your classmates more than you're hearing from that law professor. You're listening to your classmate analyze something or talk about something. And in doing so, their sharing their experiences impacts how they see things.
Law schools know that they provide the best education when they bring in a diverse class, when they bring in with people who have different life experiences, and that goes way beyond racial, ethnic, cultural experiences. Goes to professional work experience, maturity, and someone who has had experience in the armed forces. I couldn't even begin to list the types of experiences that they have that are valuable to schools. So schools really care about those experiences.
And when a law school is molding their class, knowing that they do have room in their class for students who don't have one of those numbers in median LSAT or GPA or perhaps don't have either of those numbers, there are students in every law school that didn't hit either median, enrolled, but they had other things that stand out. And someone with prior service has the possibility, trough their maturity, their life experience of bringing that to a school.
I think about the, um, last law, school, I worked at, a top 10 school, and I remember this moment where we had difficult experience with a prior student bar association president. And all of the administrators were so thrilled because a veteran had been elected as the new SBA leader, and the administrators were just so elated, thrilled, knowing that this was going to be the student leader that we would be working with who brought this kind of experience and leadership. So absolutely never decide to not apply to a law school simply because you've seen something on Reddit or a chart has said that you have a low chance of being admitted to that school.
[35:02] Brian: So, Law School Data is a site where people can self-report LSAT and GPAs, and so all the disclaimers apply. You know, people are self-reported. We don't know if that's true. Their experience is not your experience. There is more that goes into it than GPA and LSAT. And also, that site has a badge that you can select if you're a military service member.
And so rather than looking at just those graphs, if you're combing through law school data, you can look. It's a little gold star badge. If you filter that, you get self-reported LSAT and GPAs from military service members. And like Mike was saying, some of those scores will be different than what your general application pool is because you have that experience and that worldview and that perspective that law schools crave. So if you are not going to listen to the advice that Spivey gives all the time about staying off of Reddit, if you're going to shirt that advice, at least do it with a more dialed in population of LSATs and GPAs.
Danielle: That's great advice. I do tell my clients all the time, just come to me with your questions. It'll cause you a little less stress, but that's wonderful advice for them. I'm going to give one last piece of advice when it comes to your school selection, which is, shoot for the stars. Keep your feet on the ground at the same time.
So while we are saying that likelihoods for you as a military member are probably a little bit different than what you're seeing if you just put in your numbers against all the other people who are applying, do make sure that you're thinking about safety schools. Do make sure that you're also looking at some schools that will hit those numbers for you because then you're creating the pathways to become a lawyer that you want to create, but don't shut off those pathways because some predictor online made you think the chances were low. That's my last piece of advice for that.
Really practical note. Getting recommendations from your commanders or supervisors. Do you guys have any advice for that?
[36:51] Brian: So I think I have two pieces of advice, both from my own experience and from the experience I've had working with service members through Service to School, and then also mentoring a lot of folks as the Law School Veterans Association president. The first is, there's two kinds of letters of rec, right? There's letters of rec from military sort of supervisors and commanders and stuff like that. And then there's your undergrad professors, and I have one piece of advice for each.
One is for military-related recommenders. You need to tell your recommender that this is not the military, and in the Navy, we use fitness reports. I know other branches call it other things, but your yearly evaluation should not read the same as your law school letter of recommendation. And if a recommender is putting in all caps, like select now and saying you're the best thing that they've ever come across, correct me if I'm wrong to my fellow admissions readers, but I think that comes across as like, "Okay, I can't trust anything this person says."
So I would have a conversation informally with them before, and sit down in person and say, "Hey, look, here's kind of what law schools are looking for." And I think that's a thing that, if you choose to go with a consultancy, can help you with is kind of work through, what does a typical letter of recommendation look like? What does a strong one look like versus what does a weak one look like? Just having someone come in and say, "This person has no flaws," may not be the most helpful.
And, you know, as like an adjacent point to that, using a bunch of heavy, like, military jargon and terminology might not be the best thing. And so really thinking critically about what sorts of things law schools will want and how to translate that, and then knowing that what you think is going to be civilian speak is still going to need to be dialed down. Like I submitted a bunch of things to you, Danielle, where I was like, "Oh, I've combed this so that it's not military speak," and you came back, you're like, "Try again." So just know that it's an iterative process.
And then the other thing that I always get questions on is like, "Hey, how valuable is getting letters of recommendation from professors? Can I get recommendations from just military supervisors?" And I will let the other folks on this podcast speak to how much you need one versus the other. But I will say, if you're choosing to go with the undergrad route and you're choosing to go with professors, yeah, it's going to be a little awkward because you've been out for between 4 and like 10 years.
It will just be awkward to ask for that letter of recommendation if you don't have a professor that like you've maintained a personal connection with, but that's okay. Every military member's doing that, and like no one's expecting you to have some professor that you are still really, really close with. If you do, great, but if not, like, just because it's awkward for you, that's par for the course. And so don't be afraid to get advice on how to approach that conversation, but like, don't count out undergrad professors just automatically because you haven't talked to them in a while.
Danielle: Yeah, and although it can be awkward, you might get a yes, you may also get a no, and that's okay if you get a no, but getting an answer is better than deciding not to ask for it. So, Mike, do you want to talk a little bit about the value of letters from an academic source versus a military source?
Mike: Sure, and I would add that I think where it is possible, like I do think it's important to try to get those academic letters. Some law schools and some admission readers and some decision-makers just have a very strong preference for academic letters. They're important to them, and if they're not there, they wonder why they aren't there.
You know, as Brian said, of course, if some years have passed, there's certainly more understanding of that, but I would really try to get that letter. Something that you might consider doing is staying in touch with the professor that you developed a good relationship with, letting them know over time that you're planning on applying to law school, that you appreciate their mentorship and advice, and just letting them know what you've been doing over time.
I think, at many law schools, there's a preference for these academic letters, because academics know what law schools care about. They're better at those transferable skills, law schools and academics experience. So they know how to talk about the things that law schools care about. They have seen applicants matriculate in law schools, how they've done, so they're able to write things like, "In my 20 years of teaching, I would rank him among the top five students I've taught who have performed well at similar rigorous institutions."
So they know to say things like that, to talk about analytical skills and writing skills and research skills, to talk about intellectual curiosity, the kinds of things that law schools really like. Just a couple of comments on those military letters, which can also be valuable, and sometimes a really valuable supplement to the file. Brian is absolutely right about the jargon. You know, some of them are just unreadable, sort of, and even having had military—if it's not Navy, I've no idea what some of them are talking about because the jargon is even different, and I just don't know what it's saying. So, Brian, it's absolutely right.
So I suggest sharing your personal statement, having that conversation that Brian said, just so that they don't make the assumption that you want to become a JAG Corps officer when that's not what you want to do, but that's what they've assumed because they saw someone else doing that. So just sharing what your plans are and talking to them about those transferable skills, reminding them maybe about a report that you wrote or about how you analyze something, how you solve the problem. Just those types of things, so they can write those letters.
I'll also say that, at least in my experience, it's not important sort of the rank or rate of the person who writes the letter. Don't try to get one from your commanding officer or the, you know, the battalion whatever, that doesn't really know anything about you. Maybe it's the senior enlisted person that you've worked closely with who knows a lot about you and can speak from personal experiences. Those are going to be the best letter. I'm pretty positive I could go into most admissions offices and ask them whether a major or a corporal is a higher rate or rank, and they would have no idea.
[42:46] Danielle: Alright, that's great advice. I'm going to throw in one other piece of advice that I have used with clients in the past. If it has been a long time since you graduated from college, or when you were in college, you didn't really have a great college experience. A lot of military service members have an opportunity to do other types of education while they're there. So that might be language classes or something else. You might go to one of those instructors to be able to speak towards your academic ability or what you're like in a classroom setting. So that can be an alternative if you're looking back towards your undergrad and saying, "This just isn't going to work out." So just another option for you that probably doesn't exist in any other industry. So, there are other parts of the application as well that you have a lot more control over than those letters of recommendation, but I think letters of recommendation create a great amount of concern for applicants in this realm.
I want to talk quickly about resumes. What's the biggest piece of advice that each of you would give for a military member who's writing about their service for their resume?
[43:45] Brian: We talked about letters of recommendation, like you need multiple rounds of editing to make sure that an admissions officer who does not have military experience can read and understand what it is you've done. And so my biggest—I tell this to people, no matter if they're just applying solo by themselves or they're using a volunteer consultant service like Service to School or a paid consultant service, like regardless, you should also be showing this resume to your friends who are not in the military, your family members who are not in the military, and just give them a red pen and tell them to go to town with anything that doesn't make sense or that they don't understand.
This is something that you want your resume to be an asset for your application. So often, it can either read as something where the person just has no idea what they are saying. So it gets tossed aside, or worse, can play to your detriment. And so you don't want that, especially for something that's so easy to fix by taking this through multiple rounds of editing to make sure that it reads cleanly to someone who has no military experience.
Mike: It's just so important, and it's important for a number of reasons. One reason, in addition to just understanding that they may not be able to understand what you're saying, it sort of might convey a disconnection from the civilian world. If your world is entirely focused on a military experience, that might be concerning about your ability to make this transition or to interview. There's so many positive things. If you can show how they translate to civilian work that many lawyers will be doing, it's super valuable.
I sort of hesitate in saying this because I don't want to offend anyone, but I'll say it because it might help someone. I remember someone telling me about my resume at one point, like early on, that many people see military experience as a prior life. I remember being sort of hurt by that at the time because it felt dismissive to me, but it's just kind of true. There are many people who see that as a timeframe in your life disconnected with the other world or what they see as being the real world. You really have to make sure that you haven't focused it on that, but you do talk about college as being an experience in and of itself, and that intellectual curiosity that you have beyond military. It just has the potential maybe to signal and convey things that you didn't intend to convey.
[46:08] Danielle: I think that's great advice, and I think it actually helps us transition into talking about the personal statement really well. I think that this is a place where we are expecting that the connection between the life that you've been living and the life that you're wanting to live is going to connect well.
There's a ton of questions that people have about the personal statement, and some of them are, am I expected to be writing a war story? Am I expected to write about my military time? Do I have to write about my military time, or should I put it somewhere else? All of these questions kind of come from the same place. And so I'm wondering what generally you would say to somebody who is thinking about starting to write their personal statement who has military experience in their background?
Mike: So I don't think that there are any absolute rules about having to write about your military experience or not writing about military experience. I will have a conversation with the applicant, as I do it with all applicants, about what impacted them and what influenced their decision to go to law school and become a lawyer, it's quite possible that there's a story that comes from that military experience that drove them to wanting to go to law school and be a lawyer.
Maybe it is about some experience that gets you there, but it certainly doesn't have to be, and there's no expectation that it is. I think it's particularly important for service members and veterans who are recent veterans making a transition who maybe don't have other professional work experience to make sure that that personal statement, at some point, talks about that transition, that talks about that why.
It's something that, at Spivey, we talk about for all applicants, the increasing importance on the personal statement being pretty clear about why you want to go to law school and why you want to be a lawyer. I think it's even more important to make sure that you've addressed any questions that might be there about why you're making this transition and why you're making it now.
Brian: So I will say at the outset, I'm not getting paid by Spivey to be on this podcast, but I think that the personal statement is actually one of the biggest places where a consultant can kind of help you, using a service like Spivey can help you kind of navigate your way through this, especially as a military service member.
And the reason I say that is because I've worked with a lot of folks who are writing these, they're right about their military experience, but the kind of takeaway from the military experiences, like I was in the military and it was hard, or some variation of that, and what I always tell people with the advice that's worked really well for me and the advice I always give to people is you want to brand yourself as kind of military and, like your military and that's a piece of your story and also you have something else.
I think that was across the board. Everyone that I knew at Harvard who was a military vet had something else that they were interested in, some other perspective that they brought to the table. And I think you can really have a chance to stand out in that way in your personal statement. So, like for me, my personal statement that I must have gone through, I don't know, six, seven drafts with you kicking them back, which hurt in the moment, but I think the reason that it was really valuable to keep getting like, "No, no, no, you need to think deeper," was the personal statement that I ended up writing involved a deployment story, but it wasn't about what was happening on deployment, right? It was about working out with a team and like my past and how I viewed or didn't view trusting team members and how this was kind of, like, a change in my worldview as a result of this experience. And the statement was all about military, like I think you have a really potent opportunity—an admissions officer, correct me if I'm wrong, is reading hundreds if not thousands of these applications that all kind of read the same. So you have an opportunity to kind of stand out with a story subject matter that is different and that will captivate attention.
But you don't want to just lean on that. You want there to be some takeaway that leads an admissions reader to say, "Hey, okay, this person's going to be a good fit in a law school environment." And I think this kind of touches on some of the advice that Mike just gave about, you want to be able to show that you're able to kind of transition out and start a new chapter.
And I think that this is a really great opportunity for you to say, "Hey, no, this is a piece of my life and this is my identity for all these years, and I did a really hard job, and also, there's something about my perspective, something about my introspection, something about the way that I see the world that will enable me to turn the page in some respects and know that I'm a full-time student at a law school, who happens to bring military experience and background as opposed to a military service member who still sees themselves as a military service member in a classroom."
So working with someone, if it's not Spivey or a paid consultant, someone who's not in the military to kind of think through like, "Okay, how can I take these experiences, these military experiences that I've only seen through a military operational lens, and maybe look at them from a different angle that might have some kernels that would be really, really appealing to someone reading my application, knowing that the application's not to join a different military branch, the application's to go to law school?"
I think the personal statement is a really good way to do that, and to think about tying your military experiences to your personal statements with the takeaway being something non-military-related, I think, worked really, really well.
[51:13] Danielle: Awesome. That's great advice. I think the one thing that I want to add to that is, I've also had people who have come to me and said, "I don't think I'm supposed to write about my military experience at all." And I want to make sure that that's all also clear that there is no thing that you should be avoiding, and the reality is that schools are looking for military service members to come in and add to the community in so many ways. They're not looking for you to hide that. If it is the right topic matter for your personal statement, write it. If it's not, it may fit in, in a perspective essay or a diversity essay or one of the optional essays somewhere. But absolutely, don't feel like you need to write the military out of your experience either. We get these really extreme opposites sometimes.
Mike: I would add that there may be one area to think about staying away from. This is probably a given, but I'll just sort of mention it. If you're taking an ideological position on something, maybe you've worked in intelligence or something and you have views about the Middle East or Russia or something like that, as we would tell any sort of client that we're working with, the idea is not that you're explaining something to the reader or you're telling them about something. You know, the focus needs to be on you.
So every now and then, I run across an essay that is taking a position on something that might be controversial. And I won't say don't do that, but I would just say, be careful about doing that because your reader might be a law professor who knows more about that than you, or feels differently about it, or feels like they need to sort of find the flaws in what you've said. And you may have taken away from your opportunity you had to talk about yourself.
Danielle: So once you get through the application process and you've been admitted to a school and you go and you enroll, now we want to make the most out of it. So I'd love to talk a little bit about prior to enrollment, Brian, is there anything you wish you had done or that you did that allowed you to be ready that first day of school?
[53:17] Brian: Yeah, I think no matter who you are, you need to sit by yourself front of a mirror or go for a walk or like really just sit and give yourself an honest assessment of how much your military experience is a part of your identity. And I think that'll help prepare you for how easy or difficult the transition out will be.
If you're someone who says, "When I meet someone new, I introduce myself as I am, you know, so and so, and I'm in the military, and this is like a really core part of my identity," then you should prepare yourself for what could be an abrupt transition. And if you're someone who's saying, "You know, I would always introduce myself as I'm Brian and I have a number of things about me, but I've also happened to be in the military," which some people are of that perspective, there might not need to be as much sort of mental preparation for coming to school, and it might feel like a more natural transition.
I think what you want to do is try and enter with, to the extent that you can, as best you can, the perspective that, "Hey, I'm a student now." And preparing yourself to seize all the opportunities you can within a classroom environment and not kind of keep looking over your shoulder to say, "Oh, this isn't done like the military does it," or like, "Law school has a different term for whatever the thing is than the military. And I'm going to use the military term because that's still a piece of my identity."
Like, I think as best you can, you want to and are willing and ready to, in a lot of senses, make yourself completely uncomfortable again, because you're going to be learning new terminology and new concepts, and it's almost like learning a new language, especially your first year, and being okay with that. Just knowing that that's part of the process and that's part of the transition that you're going to experience. And I think thinking about that ahead of time will help you contextualize whatever feelings you do feel during your transition, because it's different for everyone.
And so I think kind of entering law school with that perspective and with that understanding of what feelings you're going to be feeling will help you succeed and thrive in law school and at least make the transition less sudden. It'll still be there, but it'll be less sudden and less daunting if you're able to sit and think with it ahead of time.
Danielle: That's a great perspective on the mental attitude to head into school with. Mike, one of the reasons I was so excited that you were going to be on this podcast is that you have done so many different things in law schools. You have worked in admissions offices, but you've also worked with students in a lot of different ways. I'd love to know, what advice do you have for vets to set themselves up for academic success once they're there? What resources do you encourage them to look into? What are some things that you think will help them academically?
[55:49] Mike: Sure, great. If you're listening to this podcast and, you know, to some extent, you have an identity or it's important to you. So I think it's really important to kind of seek out those offices on campus that might provide support for veteran service members, prior service members. Unfortunately, it may not be all that clear about which offices they are and how to reach those offices, and they're different at every school. So sometimes you have to do some research on your own, and even the folks that you talk to, representatives of the school may not be familiar with the offices. So you have to do a little internet research.
There may be a university-wide office for veterans and veteran benefits at the university. It might be freestanding, it might be out of student affairs. So I would seek out that office, go through their website, see what they offer. Sometimes veteran benefits is within the office of financial aid, and they have information there. If there is something like a DEI or they have a department that used to be called DEI that's under another name now at the school, they may provide some support to veterans. So look for those. There might be a student veterans organization affinity group at the university, and the law school might have a veteran law association, an affinity group, as well.
So I would definitely seek out all of those services, but in addition to the services just for veterans, look at the services that provide support for students generally, especially for someone who's transitioning from something different. If there's something like an academic support program or it might be an academic excellence program, something like that, I would encourage everyone I knew to participate in those types of programs.
Sometimes you find people that, because of their pride, they think, "I don't want to participate in something that sounds like it's for people who need extra support," that kind of thing. But I can tell you, my experience is all of the gunners, law review, is taking advantage of those kinds of programs. So you want to take advantage of whatever support there is.
I don't know what your experience may have been in the military. I have sometimes found that, sometimes, service members sort of are beholden to a chain of command and are maybe less likely to reach out directly to the dean of students or to a dean in a particular area. Your classmates have no problem doing that. They expect you to do that. So feel free to reach out to the dean of students about any support that you think you need, anything that you're dealing with in terms of transition. Law schools offer a lot of services, both academic and social and mental health. They're often not great at coming to you with those services, but I would avail yourself of those opportunities.
Danielle: That's a great point. I'm going to give a really practical piece of advice for as you're getting ready to go into law school: start reading. As soon as you stop writing your applications, beef up your reading because there's going to be so much that you need to do once you actually enroll. And if volume reading is not something that you've been having to do very much, that is going to be incredibly helpful to you as soon as you start up your 1L year.
That's probably the piece of advice that I've given to more clients across the years that I've gotten people coming back to me and saying, "Thank you for telling me that. It wasn't what I wanted to do, but it was really helpful." So I want to circle back to something that Brian talked about when he was telling us about his experience in law school, which is being one of the older students. How much did you notice it, Brian, and how do you make the most of it? And what other advice do you have besides what you had been saying earlier?
[59:28] Brian: Yeah, I think, one of the things that I was not prepared for was what it really meant to be not just one of the older students, but one of the older students that was a military veteran, both because there's not going to be a ton of folks older than you and because you might be the first military service member that someone in your class has ever met, and you have such an awesome power with your voice. When you speak, especially the first couple months, first semester, first year, people will listen, and they will be looking to you, whether or not you realize i,t because you are someone who's navigated this adult world. You've done really hard things.
And the way you ask questions or answer questions or the way you carry yourself or how you're acting in class, students will pick up on that. And I think that that gives military service members a responsibility to use that power wisely. So I don't think that I was fully prepared for that. And I think that's something to kind of expect. And as an addendum to that, don't scare people.
And this is why I think it's important to come in knowing that you're going to be a student. Like, you will have to check your ego at the door a little bit because you just were doing these hard things in the military, and then you're going to kind of start at square one again. And you might not pick up on concepts that the person sitting next to you, who just came straight out of undergrad, gets with ease. And like, you have to be okay with that. It will be uncomfortable at first. It always is. It's always a bit jarring. And there's nothing that really prepares you for it other than just knowing it's coming and being willing to say, "Hey, I am peers with these individuals, even if I have this kind of background."
The military vets that I saw that navigated that transition the best were willing to walk into those classrooms with open minds and say, "Hey, I might be an expert in whatever I was doing in the military, but this is a whole different ball game." And being willing to kind of start at square one again and have that ego check, while also being willing to speak up and use their experiences, and their knowledge, and their maturity in ways that would benefit the classroom. I think a lot of our professors kind of look to the military folks for what's the temperature and how do we kind of keep things in perspective and all that kinda stuff. Like, that's an ancillary benefit that military veterans bring.
I also say don't be afraid to be outgoing, right? So everyone kind of comes in, and everyone's a little timid. But I think that because you're a little bit older, you will kind of have a natural sort of credibility with folks, with professors, with administrators. I would echo exactly what Mike said earlier about like, "Don't be afraid to go talk to people that, because of chain of command, you know, being drilled into your head for however many years, you might not otherwise be willing to go approach. But you have that ability. And your military reputation is just going to be a part of your identity in law school. And you-you should be prepared for that, both to wield that responsibility responsibly.
And also to be willing to step outside of that and remind yourself that you're still a student and to not be afraid to ask the question that you might think is dumb because you don't know. And just because you were big in the military, doing something else, doesn't mean that you should know automatically what the rule against perpetuities means. Like, it's just they're completely disjointed and the more you can kind of wrap your head around that, I think the better off you'll be as a quote-unquote "older student."
[1:02:42] Danielle: Before we turn to preparing to leave school, is there any other advice either of you have for making the most of the time that you're actually in school for veterans or anyone?
Brian: One piece of advice I have, and this is why I think it's important to connect with the vets groups early, is, like, veterans will be straight up with other veterans. There were experiences when it came time to, you know, jobs, or clerkships, or what classes to take, where you kind of asked around and you got the party line about what is or is not possible. And you go talk to the vets who are older, and they say, "No, go talk to this professor, or go do this thing," and that'll kind of clear the pathways. Or alternatively, like, "No, your military veteran status isn't going to help you here. Like, you have to lean on other things." Talking to other students who—it's not just the application process that's slightly different for veterans, it's also the law school experience. And the post-grad opportunities are also different for veterans. And so being able to have those conversations early and getting embedded early will help you down the road throughout your three years in school.
Danielle: So I want to just talk generally, because everybody's personal job search is going to be very individualized. And every institution is also going to have their own processes and whatnot. But I want to see, do either of you have advice that you want to give veterans for when they are transitioning out of law school and looking for what they're going to do next? Should they lean into their military experience, should they not? We already talked a bit about you can look beyond JAG, but what else do you want people to know about the search process for that next job?
[1:04:14] Brian: I think that your military status, combined with being in law school, is one of the most potent combinations you could have. And so I think, 100%, you should lean into your veteran identity in a couple different ways. Number one, on your resume, you should talk about it because employers, again, are looking at a thousand resumes that all read the same of like, "I went to undergrad, then I worked somewhere for a year or two." Whereas if you could bring the military stuff, from my experience, that's what employers wanted to talk about because it's interesting and it's different.
Number two, by finding—well, no matter where you want to work, whether it's government, public interests, or working for a law firm, finding the military veterans who are associates and partners and who are in positions of power at those organizations. Not doing that feels like malpractice. That should be the first thing that you do. Because veterans will help each other. And especially, I think, people transitioning from military to law school is a lot less common than people transitioning from the military to an MBA program. That means that military vets who are lawyers have a little bit more of a close-knit community.
Working for a law firm last summer, I got that through a cold email to a partner who was a Navy vet who emailed me back, like, an hour after I submitted, wrote the email and said, "Hey, let's talk later today." We talked for 15 minutes. He's like, "Okay, great. That counts as your screener interview. My buddy's the hiring partner. You're through to call back interviews." Is that going to happen every single time? Like, of course not. But it's really kind of indicative about the ways that you should approach things. And leaning into your military experience signals so much to employers about your ability to work hard, your maturity, that are positives no matter where you're trying to work. To me, it's the foundation of what you should be leaning on when it comes time for postgrad opportunities.
Mike: I would just add to what Brian said. If you're attending a regional law school, where networking is critical, it's even more important that you do all the things that Brian said. That's where most graduates are going to find jobs, from the connections that they make. And as Brian said, that's a powerful connection to make. So if you're, you know, maybe attending a regional law school and you're looking for positions in that city, connecting with other veterans, prior service members who are in those industries, is a great way to start.
I was serving in the reserve while I was in law school. And I was in a 10-man tent with some Marine Corps officers, just after a few days, a conversation came up. And two of the Marine Corps officers in my tent were lawyers, practicing in the city that I was in. I had no idea that they were lawyers. So if you're serving in a reserve unit, there's a possibility that there may be a good number of attorneys in there as well. That networking is just critical in addition to the possibilities of employment. Just maintaining those contacts with people can be really valuable.
[1:07:09] Danielle: I could sit and keep on asking you guys questions for another hour, but I'm not sure that people will continue to listen to us for another hour. So I'm actually going to wrap this up at this point. What I do want to lean into, though, is what you both were just talking about, which is the power of networking, asking for help, not doing this on your own. And that's probably the biggest piece of advice that I want to share as we head out of this podcast is that this isn't something you have to do on your own.
Now, Spivey Consulting works with a number of veterans every year, but it's actually really important for us to provide resources to all different types of applicants. And the veteran population is one of them, where we're specifically focusing on in this podcast. But we try to get as much information out there in these types of services that go to everybody, like these podcasts. There are other really great resources out there, including the program that we were chatting about earlier that Brian's a member of, which is Service to School. There's also other resources like your undergraduate career services office.
A lot of times, if you reach out to an armed forces organization at a law school, they can give you some advice as well. So, before we jump off completely, are there any other places either of you would encourage veterans to look at while they're doing the application process, so that they are not trying to do this all by themselves?
Mike: You know, it's something that you've already talked about, but I just want to mention again that Service to School, in my experience, is just a wonderful organization. Brian can talk a little bit more about it. But when I was the director of admission at a top 10 law school, we had an affiliation with Service to School. So through that affiliation, I know that I gave presentations that were specifically for service members applying to law school. I flew out to fairs and events and conferences where service members applying to law school had direct connection to admission deans and directors from top law schools. Because of our affiliation, we really took note of Service to School members when they were in our application process. I think we offered fee waivers to all veterans, but maybe some additional services to members of Service to School. I found it to be a fantastic organization. I truly also appreciate their sort of interest in helping veterans and service members to also look at top schools, at elite law schools. Your participation there is important as well. So I just wanted to mention that, and then thank you for your service—to everyone listening.
[1:09:36] Brian: Yeah, I echo everything Mike said; I echo everything you said, Danielle. I would add a couple things. So, just really quickly, I don't know if we've actually talked about the meat and potatoes of what Service to School does. Essentially, you apply while you're serving and thinking about transitioning, and they will pair you with another military vet who's currently in law school or a recent graduate, and they will give you free one-on-one consulting advice. Like, when I was applying, I got paired with someone who was a 3L at HLS. And so he helped me through my personal statement. He helped me through my resume. He helped me through the entire application process. And it's free. And then the payback is then when you are in law school, you're expected to then serve as a mentor, you know, pay forward essentially. So that's the model for Service to School. They also, the other valuable thing that they do is, they will provide webinars with admissions deans from top law schools for military veterans and service members to really kind of ask questions in a controlled environment, as well as career fairs, law school application fairs, like they do really good work. So, that's for anyone kind of curious about what Service to School is and does. That's always a good place to start.
I also think that there are situations where military veterans do need paid consulting services, where it would be valuable. I think the situations, we've talked about some of them already, but, like, if you're deploying, you should think long and hard about, would it be helpful to have someone else kind of working through your application materials? You're still going to write all your application materials, but to have someone kind of edit them and put second eyes on them while you're somewhere where there might not be a ton of time or ability to get other people to put eyes on that stuff.
If you are kind of drawing a blank on, exactly how do I write a personal statement that talks about my military experience in a way that admissions readers are going to like? I think that's another really great time to think critically about whether or not to, in addition to Service to School, use a paid service like Spivey.
But I think the things that we always talked about when I was running the Harvard Law School Armed Forces Association is, you can also reach out to the schools themselves, especially if you're in situations where, like, you need some flexibility. Like, I was able to reschedule my interview with HLS because I was in the middle of the South China Sea on an aircraft carrier, so, like, not a lot you could do. So they were very gracious in like allowing me to reschedule. Fee waivers are a big thing. So connecting with the admissions team and the administration ahead of time, I think, is also a really good piece of advice that people don't think about.
And then reaching out to the schools is the final thing that I would say, like, reaching out to the Harvard Law School Armed Forces Association, the Yale Law Veterans Association. Like, schools that you're looking to apply to that have military affinity groups, reaching out to them ahead of time and asking to speak to someone can really help you dial in your application, nail down your why, help you kind of explore opportunities that you might not be able to read on a website and really get some straight stick advice, I think, is a really smart thing to do. And you can get a lot from a 15-minute call with a current student. So I think those are three things that, in addition to all the other resources that are out there, folks should think about.
[1:12:36] Danielle: I want to say thank you to the both of you. You have given such great advice over the last hour. I am really hopeful that it is helpful to everybody who's listening today. And for everybody who's listening, we are answering as many questions as we can and in as many places as we can as well. So please reach out if there's anything we can do for you. And please keep on listening to the podcast because there's lots of advice that will be coming out soon.
Brian: Thank you. Appreciate the time. Thanks, guys.
Mike: Thanks so much, everyone. Great to be here.
Danielle: Thank y'all. Bye now.