Derek Meeker: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Status Check with Spivey, where we talk about life, law school, and law school admissions. My name is Derek Meeker, I'm a partner with Spivey Consulting, I've been with the firm for 10 years now, and I've been working in law school admissions and legal recruiting for over 25 years.
Paula Gluzman: And I'm Paula Gluzman. I'm also a consultant at Spivey Consulting. Been with the firm since, oh gosh, I think 2018, and before that was in law school admissions and law school career advising as well. And very, very happy to be here on this “where are they now” former client podcast that we're doing with Spivey Consulting and with Status Check.
[00:55] We have two amazing guests with us today, former clients, and before we introduce them, I would love to just tell you a little bit about where the idea for this podcast came from. So, my former client and I had gotten back in touch with each other. I believe it was when she was just graduated from law school, was ready to study for the bar, and we were having a conversation about all the things that she was able to do and accomplish during law school, and how it really felt like a full-circle moment. And I left that call just feeling incredibly inspired and incredibly proud and thinking how any applicant for law school would also be inspired by hearing that all the work that went into the application process really does turn into a future full-circle moment that completes the process, allows you to do that thing that you wanted to go to law school for, and hopefully, find a little inspiration while you're in the first step of your legal career. So here we are with this “where are they now” podcast. And I will turn it over to Derek so he can introduce his former client to you.
[2:01] Derek: Thank you, Paula. So when Paula shared the idea for this podcast with me, serendipitously, Cam had emailed me that same week, letting me know that they had just graduated from law school. And what was funny was in the email, you said, "I'm not sure you remember me, but we worked together," and I wrote back and immediately said, "Of course I remember you. How could I forget?" and I referenced some details from your personal statement and said, "Hands down, it was one of my favorite essays," and we're going to talk a little bit about that later.
But it was serendipitous in that you reached out, right, at the same time this was coming together, and I thought, "Who better to be on this episode?" because you have so many diverse and interesting experiences and aspects of your identity that many applicants will relate to in one or more ways. Non-traditional student, Cam's a 2014 graduate, Virginia Commonwealth University, so you were seven years out of college when you applied to law school. You were a STEM major, biology. You identify as a member of the LGBTQ community, and you're not only a first-generation law school and college graduate, but a first-generation high school graduate and former foster care youth, and now a graduate of the University of Virginia School of Law. So we are delighted to have you and can't wait to hear all about your experiences and advice you have. Welcome, Cam.
Cam: Thanks, Derek. So glad to be here.
[3:32] Paula: Awesome. And then, without further ado, I'd like to introduce my former client, Shasta Fields. We connected from a previous client that I had that referred Shasta to me. And when I met Shasta, she was just about to start her senior year at UC Davis undergrad; studying some form of sciences; really, really interested in law; was a part of the mock trial team there; and came to the idea of going to law school with a very dedicated and self-determined goal of becoming an environmental law student and practicing environmental law.
Shasta is a part of the Cherokee tribe. Shasta is also a first-generation college student, first-generation law student, and had come from a lot of very interesting, diverse, and complex backgrounds that influenced her ideas and desires to go into law school, which I know that you'll be able to share, Shasta, throughout our conversation here. Ultimately, you ended up going to UCLA School of Law, with the focus on environmental law. I'm so excited for you to share more about what you're doing now as a practicing attorney that's within that field. And I know we'll discuss all the things that you were able to do during law school and what you got out of the three years of law school throughout this podcast. So I don't want to give any more spoilers, but welcome to the podcast, Shasta.
[4:52] Shasta Fields: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.
Paula: Awesome. So the way that we are thinking of kind of going through this is, we created a list of questions that we thought would kind of cover the gamut of, kind of, tell us a little bit about where you are right now, what you're doing with your career, the idea of who are you now as an attorney, somebody who has come full circle, and then to sort of work backwards in, okay, how did the application process go for you? How did it maybe influence your decision of where you want to go? And then also, is there anything that you learned during that part that you were actually able to take with you into your law school experience? Did it inform your law school experience, and if so, how?
Derek: So, why don't you both start by telling us where you are now in your career? When did you graduate from law school? What type of law you are practicing?
[5:41] Shasta: Hello. I'm Shasta. I am now two years out of law school, which is crazy to say. I feel like time has absolutely flown. So I'm two years out of law school, and I am working as an environmental lawyer as I always wanted to do, which is so full circle to say that out loud after hearing Paula explain that, like, that is what I wanted to do, and now I'm doing it. Yes, I'm working as an environmental lawyer at a small to mid-size firm in San Francisco called Shute, Mihaly, & Weinberger, where I practice a wide variety of topics involving environmental and tribal law. And yeah, that's where I'm currently at.
[6:15] Cam: Hi. I'm Cam. I am very freshly graduated. I'm currently studying for the bar right now, taking it in, what, five days? I am going to join a firm called Bracewell, which sort of specializes at a lot of different things, but one of their specialties is energy and environmental work.
Derek: First of all, I just want to say an extra special thank you for being here five days before you're sitting for the bar exam.
Shasta: So impressive.
Derek: Yeah.
Paula: How are you functional?
Cam: I mean, I figure if at this point doing a podcast is what cooked me, I'm already cooked.
[6:54] Derek: All right. It's interesting, too, that you both are in the environmental law field. We didn't know that until afterwards, but that is very interesting. So, Shasta, you shared a little bit, and I think Paula shared a little bit about what you were doing before law school. Cam, why don't you tell us more about your path beforehand, because as I mentioned, you were seven years out of college. So what were you doing before law school? What made you want to go to law school? Did your reasoning change at all once you were there?
Cam: Sure, yeah, absolutely. I had worked as the person that nobody wants to see. I was an environmental auditor, and so I worked for a couple of different companies, most recently a big utility, essentially going to their facilities and figuring out, okay, this is what you're doing well, this is what you could improve on, and this is how we're going to go forward. And throughout that process, I decided that I really liked working with clients. I really liked researching complex problems and trying to figure out, you know, this is an issue that we have, how can we solve it, not only now, but also into the future? I thought that that's what it sounded like lawyers did, and that I might want to become a lawyer in the future.
I wasn't one of the people that was like, "Oh, yeah, I want to become a lawyer, like, straight from birth." It was definitely something that I, over time, grew into. And when I first started my career, it was much more heavy STEM, and still is. I've become, I hope, much more holistic over the course of law school. So that's a little bit of how I changed. I've discovered throughout law school that I feel like I can be good at a lot of different things, whereas when I was in my career, I basically focused on one thing. I thought I was good at one thing. That's how law school changed me.
[8:43] Paula: That's awesome. And then, Shasta, for you, when did it all kind of come together for you that you wanted to go into law—especially because conservation and environmentalist, you know, ideas and ideologies were sort of a part of your life—but when did it transition to wanting to do that as a lawyer?
Shasta: Yeah, I remember, actually, exactly when it happened. I was sitting in the front row of an environmental policy class, and, similar to Cam actually, I was full steam ahead STEM. I took chem, I took bio, I took all the science courses in undergrad. I knew I wanted to protect the environment, but just in a really different way. I actually wanted to be a bear biologist. So I wanted to go out and, like, collect bear scat and, like, study bears and be outside as much as I could.
And then, as part of my major in environmental science, I had to take a policy class. And I was sitting front row in this policy class, and I was just enamored with the changes in the law and how it influenced how we interact with the environment as humans. And I was like, "Whoa, this is what I want to do. This is how I can majorly influence the world and protect the environment." And that's not to say that I wouldn't have had that influence in my other planned career path, but I just knew that I wanted to make these huge, large-scale changes, and I thought that the law and policy was the way to do it.
[9:54] I had a major shift and joined the mock trial team, realized that I love oral advocacy, and I loved having a client that I was representing their interests. And so it all just sort of started to click into place that this was the path for me. And that didn't really change in law school. If anything, it was what got me through law school. I feel like going in law school, I had these strong beliefs that were getting me through these incredibly difficult times that is law school. I was thinking the whole time, like, "I want to help environmental justice communities, so I have to study for this test." So it didn't change much in law school. If anything, it got stronger, and it got me through.
[10:44] Cam: That's so funny that you mentioned that. Originally, I wanted to be a forester, so very similar path.
Shasta: Oh yeah! See, similar.
Cam: Similar.
Paula: Y'all could have been, like, hiking together and collecting scat and doing all sort of things.
Cam: Yeah.
Shasta: You would be, like, trees, and I'd be, like, bears!
Cam: Yeah.
[11:02] Paula: And now you can do that in court. I love it. So I love to hear that both of you really had this idea, and it came from either a very strong internal motivation or work and, you know, studying that you did before that inspired you to go into law.
And if we can transition into making the decision and now going through the application process, what concerns did you have about getting started with your applications? Was there something that you entered preparing your applications with that was more on top of your mind, or things that you felt like you had to further explain? What made you put your applications together the way that you did?
[11:40] Cam: So I can say that one of my concerns was that I was already blessed with a very good career. And so I wanted to go to a school that I felt was going to set me up for success, where I wasn't going to have my standard of living be lowered for having made this decision. And so when I first came into the process, I was like, "This is my school list." And it was like five schools, I think. And Derek actually helped me broaden my school list a little bit, helped me open up a little bit.
But I entered into this process with, "This is what I want. If I don't necessarily get to go to law school because I'm being so picky, that's just the way it goes." That was one of my major concerns when I was preparing my application, was setting myself up for success with a very small list of schools.
[12:25] Shasta: Yeah. And then, for me, I would say that I went into it struggling quite a bit with imposter syndrome and thinking that I didn't belong in law school, you know. I came from a low-income background, and so I was just like, "Do I belong? Is my application going to even get looked at? Are they going to throw it straight in the trash?" And I think that that was where Paula was really my saving grace, because we sat down and had a conversation. I said, "Where do we start?" And you said, "Tell me about you. Tell me about your life. How did you grow up? What was your life like?" And through that conversation, we were able to figure out that my journey to that point was not what should keep me out of law school. If anything, it was why I should go to law school and why I would make a good lawyer. And you were so great at being able to pick those pieces out and say, "No, no, no, your story's worth telling, and this is what your application should focus on." And so I was very grateful for that. But I definitely struggled going in with feeling like, ugh, I don't know if anyone's even going to read my application. I don't belong. But it was just the opposite.
[13:32] Cam: Yeah, I actually had a very similar experience. I had a conversation with my husband, actually, and he said, "Just because you take the LSAT doesn't mean you have to apply. And just because you apply doesn't mean you have to go." And so, at least for me, getting over that initial hurdle of like, "Oh, should I even go in the first place?" cutting it up into pieces really helped me to get over that hurdle.
Derek: And Cam, so obviously I already mentioned your personal statement, and this is a significant component of the application, and I think maybe even more elevated for applicants like both of you who have had some challenges in your life, but also have very broad and diverse experiences. It's also an intimidating part of the application for most people, right? Well I mean, most people don't like writing about themselves, right? And so to do it in a way that feels authentic, and how do you find the right tone, and—what were your thoughts going into it in terms of approaching it?
[14:33] Cam: Not to toot the horn about you, but I feel like this is where you hugely helped me in developing my personal statement, because for a while there, when we were first drafting, it was like pulling teeth. I was very matter-of-fact, like, you know, STEM background, this happened, this happened. There was no emotion anywhere at all. And especially, I didn't know what parts of my own story were different or unique, or just how rare somebody with my personal experiences is in law school.
So you definitely helped me to bring that out and focus on the things that made me unique, that made me special, like maybe that I would give more to the law school experience, bring a perspective maybe that was missing. But it was very difficult, like I said, because, you know, some of these things that you talk about, they're difficult parts of your life. So having you as a support really helped that story come out.
[15:25] Derek: I appreciate that, but ultimately, it was your story. And the thing that I always talk about is, the personal statement has to be authentic and really come across as genuine and conversational, right, so that the reader feels like they really get to know you. And I think what you did so well was you shared some of those personal details that were very challenging, right, about your life, but you also injected your sense of humor into the essay. That's not easy to do. Even, you know, rereading it again, it just makes me smile. And if you can make an admissions officer smile when they're reading, you know, a million applications, you've definitely done something special.
[16:09] So, if everyone will indulge me, may I read some little snippets from it? This is just the beginning of the essay. "In the summer of 2011, I received the most exciting call of my 20-year life, an interview invitation for an internship with a company in Richmond. Fresh out of the foster care system, and with no one else to ask, I consulted the ultimate arbiter of interview advice, Google." So that was your opening, which was lovely, right?
And then in paragraph 2 is when you talked about the difficult aspects of your life, in essence, why you didn't have anyone to ask for interview advice, right? And then you go on to then talk about this interview. "Google said I needed to do three things for my interview: buy a suit, practice interview questions, and show up early. That weekend, I headed to the fancy Goodwill across town. The first suit I tried on was a purple pantsuit with huge shoulder pads. I put it in the ‘maybe’ pile. The second one was a tweed skirt suit that was too long in the sleeves, but shoulder pad-free. I asked the checkout ladies for their opinion and received a smattering of advice about dry cleaners and steamers, along with a thumbs up on the tweed suit. I unfurled two $5 bills from my pocket and stuffed the suit into my backpack."
[17:24] My favorite part, though, and just a few more sentences and we could move on, but, "The day of the interview, I put my heels, a padfolio, and an extra set of nylons into my bag and headed down to my moped. That's when I realized I should have gotten the pantsuit. Hiking up my skirt while keeping my nylon-clad calf clear of the muffler, I hopped on my moped and headed downtown."
Every time I read it, I laugh. But then the kicker of all this is you go on to tell us that after all that, once you get there, you find out it was supposed to be a phone interview.
Cam: Yeah. I had never heard of a phone interview before!
[17:56] Derek: But you ended up getting the internship, and this kind of changed your life, right? This was the start of it.
Cam: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And she was so nice. The head of the intern department at the company I came to work for was just so nice, and she was like, "Honey, do you know this was a phone interview?" But we still did it. She came down. It was a big deal.
Derek: Yeah, because then that led to a full-time job. That's basically what started your seven-year career in the environmental field.
Cam: And I remember us laughing throughout that process about pulling out these different details of the story because the original—that wasn't the first draft. Like, how many drafts do we have? Like 20 different drafts?
Derek: Yes. We have many drafts.
Cam: Each draft, we would, like, make it a little bit better, make it a little tighter. I think it was much shorter when we first started. And it took a little bit of time to figure out, like, what from my past are we going to focus on? And it's funny that that's the part of my life that we chose, because I didn't see that as funny or as memorable as you did.
[19:00] Derek: Yes. But clearly, admissions officers at a number of top schools did as well, right, because you did okay. And just really quickly now, looking back on it, do you have any advice for applicants about the personal statement and maybe having some of the same fears or concerns that you did?
Cam: I remember you telling me that this is what was going to make or break. Based on the personal statement, this is what could get me into the schools that I wanted to get into, or what would not get me into those schools. And I think knowing that helped me to put myself out there a little bit more, to be a little bit more open about these details, and to spend a little bit more time on it. Because you had told me, this is important, and it's less about all these other parts of the application, but this is where you can really shine, especially if you've got, you know, a background that's not quite as—it's not like everybody else's.
[19:53] Paula: And Shasta, I can't wait to sort of ask you, and then Cam, you'll have a chance to answer this question as well. How did you ultimately decide on the school that you were going to, and do you feel you made a right choice for yourself at the end of the day?
Shasta: Yeah. So this was one of the hardest parts, actually, of the application process. Obviously, studying for the LSAT is grueling, although I warn listeners, the bar is harder. Yeah, I think that the hardest part was getting the results back. And then, obviously, you're very happy for a few minutes. First call was to my mom and dad. Second call was to Paula. Third was to sit with myself and be like, "Oh, shoot, now I have to pick. I have to choose among these schools." And for me, I got into UCLA, and I was super excited about that, and I also was so grateful that I got a full ride to that school on a fellowship. And that was an incredible life-changing opportunity, because I wasn't going to take on student debt.
And then I also got into University of Chicago, which is, I think, at the time, it was like number four or something on the rankings list, which seemed to matter so much at the time, of course. And I was so astonished that I even got in, that I almost wanted to just reply immediately to the email and say, yes, I want to go here. But, kind of, having to step back and think, "Okay, if I go to one school that is ranked very high," and I'm putting air quotes for everyone who can't see, "considered a top very prestigious school for ticket for X price, or go to this other school that is still incredible and amazing, but not, like, ranked as high on this very subjective list for free."
[21:30] And that was such a difficult decision. But ultimately, I realized that not having the financial barrier and worrying about, “How am I going to pay my debt back? How am I going to put food on the table during law school? How am I going to pay my rent?” Not having to worry about that during law school not only is life-changing, but also such an insane opportunity that a ton of students do not get. And so I ultimately went the UCLA route, and I'm so grateful to that school for letting me go for free.
And I don't regret it a day in my life because, ultimately, when I was choosing my job out of law school, I didn't have to take, again, keeping the lights on into consideration, I was able to pick the job that my heart was pulling me to and my passions were pulling me to. And, you know, not that there's anything wrong with going to places that pay you more, that's always wonderful, but I knew what I wanted to do, I knew what type of law I wanted to practice, and I didn't want to be limited by financial constraints. And so that was such a huge weight off my shoulders, and I absolutely do not regret that a single day in my life. I am very, very happy with my decision to go to UCLA.
[22:37] Paula: I remember being in my front driveway speaking to you because my little one was at home having a moment, and I was like, threw him at my husband and went outside to have a conversation with you. And I remember the sun was setting, and we were having a talk about how there was almost this internal—you felt, like, an obligation to go to the best school that accepted you. You were like, "I am first-generation. My parents would be so proud to know that I was doing this." And I remember talking to you about their environmental law programs and the things that you would be able to take advantage of.
And at one point, it was one of those conversations of, "Shasta, they're going to be so proud of you anywhere you go. UCLA is a fantastic school. I worked there. I know the programs well. It's a fantastic school. And for someone who money has always been an issue, how nice would it be—not that you have to worry about it, but how nice would it be to not worry about it?" And I remember you sort of having a shift in your mind of, "That's a really good point. Anybody would be proud of me going here," but then making sure that you felt proud where you were going.
And so when you told me UCLA, a small, little biased part of me, because of where, you know, my experience there, I was so happy that you were going to have that experience. And then, the fact that three years later, when we were talking about how you just completely carpe diemed the heck out of all of their programs, was just—I was so proud and I was so inspired by you. And so I can't wait to hear about that. But Cam, I want you to tell us a little bit, too, about how you made your choice.
[24:09] Cam: Oh, sure. Like I said earlier, my list was a lot shorter, partially because I felt like I needed to go to a school that would set me up. And so many schools will set you up for success, but I wanted to be confident in my decision for myself. I joke all the time, for my husband, there is one school, it was UVA Law. There was no other school. And so the day that I got into UVA, he was just, like, over-the-moon thrilled. He could not wait. And it's so funny that you bring up the relationships that you have with your family and with the people in your life, because that was definitely a huge decision in where I wanted to go.
There were a couple of schools that I actually visited, and I was like, "I feel like he's not going to be happy here." And that was really important to me that we continue that relationship with my in-laws and my husband, and that he was just as happy as I was going to be. So that was a huge part of my decision. And it's really funny because his mom actually has UVA mom swag. My husband and his sister are like, "Why don't you wear the swag from our schools?" [laughs]
Paula: That's amazing.
Cam: It's UVA.
[25:19] Derek: UVA was on the original short list, on the original list of five. But you ended up applying to like, I don't know, 12 schools or something like that, right? It ended up being a pretty big list, but how thrilling that UVA, one of the original five—and I think, I can't remember exactly, but it was certainly one of the most selective of your group of schools.
Cam: Yeah.
Derek: But you both grew up in Virginia, too, right? That was part of it.
Cam: Yeah. And he actually had worked for UVA, the health system before, so he was very familiar. He had lived in Charlottesville. Like, we knew that we were going to be happy there. That was a big part of our decision, too.
Derek: So it sounds like you both feel you made the right choice.
Cam: Yeah.
Paula: Absolutely. That would've been so awkward if it wasn't.
Cam: Yeah. Can you imagine? I'm like, "I made the wrong choice. I should have gone—" No, I'm just kidding.
[26:08] Derek: We're also curious if there was anything in the application process that helped you actually get through law school. Is there anything maybe that you learned during the application process that you used in law school?
Cam: One of the things that I really picked up is how, when you are in law school, the things that you thought were of the utmost importance are really not as important once you're there. Of course, you want to pick a place where you're going to be happy and it has the classes that you want, and, you know, it's got the faculty that are going to help you along your path. But so many of the things that I thought about as part of the application process, no matter where you go, it's probably going to be an awesome choice, and you're going to have a great time, and you're going to make wonderful connections. Thinking about, like, who's ranked fifth in environmental law is just not going to be as important to you once you're in law school.
[27:01] Derek: That is such great advice. I really appreciate you sharing that because, yes, I think almost everyone, certainly almost everyone I work with, struggles with some of those questions. Something I always say is, you are the driver of your success and your happiness, right? At the end of the day, wherever you are, it's never going to be the school itself. It's going to be you and the things that you do. You are going to be the one that creates your success and happiness. So I love that you shared that.
Shasta: For me, I would say that it was realizing that there was such a diversity and variety of people applying and going to law school, because I'm sure anyone listening to this was equally as glued to the website law school by the numbers as I was, which is the website that shows you who's getting into what school with what stats. And as an applicant, every morning I feel like I would wake up and look at law school by the numbers. It was like an obsession of mine, probably unhealthy. And I remember a dot would come up that was, like, someone who had similar numbers as me. Looking back now, I'm like, "so silly." And I would almost feel, like, a personal connection to that dot. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that person got in. If they got in, I can do it, too." And then getting to law school and realizing, like, oh, there were people behind all of those dots I was seeing. Like, there were human beings with unique experiences and strengths and weaknesses that they were bringing to the table. It made me realize that, like, I also belong here. I also can thrive here. And I'm also more than just, like, my numbers on that screen.
Because when I was applying, you know—and I feel like a lot of students that I talk to now deal with this—is you're just so obsessed with, like, the GPA and the LSAT, which matter, of course. But, like y'all were just talking about, you're going to thrive and be happy if that is what you intend on doing, no matter where you go. And so it was just very full circle to be very obsessed with where I fell on the numbers and then getting to the school and being like, "Wait, no one cares about that. Now we're just all law students here wanting to learn and become lawyers."
So I think that having that transition of mindset wasn't necessarily something I learned in the application process. It took going to law school to fully learn it, but I recognized it.
[30:04] Cam: I just want to touch on something you said real quick, because just going off of people are more than their numbers—during the application process, you get waitlisted, and it's crushing, because you so want to go to that school, and it feels like you're second best, you weren't their first choice. I was waitlisted to, like, UVA originally. I will tell you that so many of my classmates, I guess people feel comfortable talking about it now because we've graduated, I've learned that they were all waitlisted, too. Like, it's not uncommon. I don't think it means anything about you as a person. It's just the school put a little hold on your application for a little bit. It doesn't mean you didn't get in. So I do think when you're applying, that seems so much more important than it is at the end of law school.
[29:59] Derek: It can be a stressful process, for sure, and a very long process. But yes, you are here as proof that it certainly does not mean the end of the application cycle.
Paula: Well, and at the end of the day, you have the same opportunities in 1L, 2L, and 3L. You all graduate with the same JD degree at the end of the day. So that extra little step that you had to go through, if anything, builds resilience, and then you make the most out of it. And speaking of what you all did with your time in law school, can you share a little bit about how you took advantage of the opportunities and offerings at your school?
Shasta, I know that if there was anything dealing with environmental law, whether it was a clinic, a journal, the student organizations, you were there, and you were leading the charge with it all. So can you tell us a little bit about how you sort of navigated and balanced school with all the other extracurriculars that you took on at UCLA?
[30:55] Shasta: Yes. So I would say my first year I did—and I think this is solid advice for anyone that's going to law school—my first year, I really focused on just becoming acclimated to law school. Law school requires you to think differently. It's a very different workload and work style, the amount of reading that's assigned. And so I didn't do a ton of extracurriculars that first year. I was just focused on, "All right, I just need to get used to living in Los Angeles, get used to being in law school, and the workload and everything."
But then once I had all that under my belt and I felt comfortable, second and third year was—I know everyone says law school is really hard. I would say 1L is hard. 2L and 3L, I was having fun. I was really enjoying my time in law school because, like you were saying, Paula, I was just trying to take advantage of everything that law school has to offer.
At UCLA, if you want to do environmental law, I cannot recommend UCLA enough, because there are so many opportunities. You know, I was the president of the Environmental Law Society. I was an editor of the Journal of Environmental Law and Policy. I was in the Environmental Law Clinic, the Tribal Law Clinic, and there's just so many opportunities. I was on the mock trial team. And it's almost like you can't soak it all up enough fast enough. It goes by so fast. And I think that focusing, obviously, on your studies is important, but also realizing that law school is more than just the books and classes, it's also the connections and the people around you that you only have a couple years to take advantage of.
And so I would encourage anyone in law school or going to law school to make sure that they stop and, like, smell the roses a little bit. Look around at what opportunities are available at your school, whether that's clinics or journals or whatever it may be, because you only have a couple of years to take advantage of it, and those connections will pay off endlessly throughout your career. I've already gotten to take advantage of many of those connections I've made. So, yes, definitely focus on your studies, but also have a little bit of fun.
[32:48] Cam: Yeah, I absolutely agree with you on everything. Especially, for 1L, just to add a little bit, if you've been out of college for a while, writing for law school exams is, like, a very specific way of writing. And I certainly did not know that because I thought I did a ton of writing for my job, and I did, but it wasn't the type of writing that was expected of me on a law school exam. So if you have been out of school for a while, I'd really recommend researching how they expect you to write, or getting advice on how to write. For 2L and 3L—if you are struggling getting through 1L, 2L and 3L are so much better.
And I agree with you, take advantage of all the opportunities that's available. One of the things that kind of irked me a little bit is, I'd have classmates who are wonderful and incredibly accomplished, and then they only take transactional classes, or they only take litigation. Like, I'd have classmates who said, "I could never take a clinic," that they don't want to, they just can't. I don't think that's true. I think if you've gotten into these schools, you could take anything on their curriculum. So I did it all. I took Transactional Approach to M&A, I did the Holistic Youth Defense Clinic, I did the Environmental Clinic. I took all kinds of classes, because this is really going to be your last chance to take anything that interests you. What if you get to the end of law school and you're like, "Oh, man, I really love tax," but you never took it. I took tax. I did enjoy it. So speaking from experience, don't put yourself in a box before you've even had the opportunity to explore what the box is.
[34:21] Derek: I'm so impressed by what you have done in your three years at law school. And you already touched on this, but you were involved in a lot of pro bono community work, even though you were pursuing a career, obviously, in the private sector, you were going to be working at a law firm. Now, a lot of applicants feel like they have to choose between the two. And so, could you just talk a little more about that? Because you even said, a lot of your classmates were just solely focused on transactional law, for example. How did you know that you could do this, or did you ever feel any sort of pressure?
Cam: It's so funny because all of my life, I've been really involved in sort of public service and volunteering. I served as a poll worker. I did advocacy work. That never was my job. That was always in addition to what I was doing for full-time work. So this dichotomy didn't come up until I was at law school, and I was like, "What do you mean I've got to choose one or the other? Like, why can't we do both?" I will say, you may get a reputation as a fence sitter. People may give you a little bit of flak because you want to do both. But I think you just have to choose what's right for you.
And I think that we need more crossover. People who are going into public interest absolutely have some business knowledge. I think that's absolutely helpful. And vice versa, if you're going into private practice, having a view of your community and how the things you do affect your community is also really important. I think forcing people into boxes just means that you only know one side. And so I would encourage people to be as well-rounded as they possibly can be, just for your own awareness and for the good of the community.
[35:57] Paula: Your words to everyone's ears. My goodness, beautifully said.
Derek: Yes, beautifully said. I'm curious, because you referenced you'll get some flak and some will see you as a fence sitter. Did that ever come up from the employer perspective?
Cam: It both did and did not. I got more flak from my classmates. I did get some advice one time that, "Oh, well, maybe you want to tone down your public interest work, because then private practice employers may not think you're as serious." And I think that's good advice, but it wasn't the right advice for me. I wanted to go to a firm that knew this part about me, that was okay with it, that may support me in doing that type of work in the future. So it was good advice, it just wasn't the right advice for me.
[36:42] Derek: Again, just, like, such great advice, and it's hard. Like, I get it, right? A lot of people in law school are 22, 23 years old, and it's hard to make those choices, or, you know, to go against someone's advice like that. But, you know, it just goes to show that you can remain true to yourself, do all the things that are important to you, and still accomplish whatever those professional goals are. They don't have to be in conflict with each other.
And by the way, so Cam was very involved in both the Holistic Youth Defense Council Clinic, I think you mentioned that, but also the Environmental Law and Community Engagement Clinic at UVA, and you were actually awarded the Clinical Legal Education Association's Outstanding Student Award for the 2024-2025 year at UVA. And so I just want to say congratulations.
Cam: Thanks! Appreciate it.
Derek: Yeah, I mean, that's amazing because there, again, like, I think one's assumption would be that a public interest career person is going to be the one who gets that type of award, but it doesn't have to be that way. It's such an important part of your experience, and I think really great advice. And so, hopefully, some of our listeners will remember this when they get to law school.
[37:52] Paula: You can be more than one thing. And if there's two things that I just want to reiterate that both of you have talked about in talking about your law school experiences and how it has shaped the connections that you've made and the jobs that you've received now—both of you talked about getting involved and being a part of advocacy groups and clinics and writing for journals and all the things that are not in classroom academic experiences. You both describe them as having fun, and, to me, that just speaks volumes that law school and being legal advocates is where you belong and what you truly love to do and want to do. And even though it was a lot of work and it was a lot of energy that you were putting into that, you had fun doing it, which I think is just very profound, because there's lots of people who wouldn't describe law school necessarily as fun, or at least having so much work to do.
And then the other thing to say, too, is, Shasta, you're at a public interest law firm, that is, a private firm doing public interest work. And the area of law that you can be doing can still be serving people and helping in situations where people might not have any other reprieve, and you can still do well while doing good. And I'm very, very happy that both of you are in positions where you don't have to sacrifice what truly matters to you and your desire to make an impact on the world and to make the world a better place, while also carrying on careers that might be private sector or might be doing other things.
And so again, for listeners to hear that they're not mutually exclusive. You can do so much good while still doing well with your career, and it can start with the connections you make at law school. So thank you both for touching on that and being brave enough to, sort of, carve your own path in that process.
[39:39] Derek: And speaking of the recruitment process and the job search process, what was that like for both of you, both in terms of your 1L summer, as well as your 2L summer, and certainly if you have any tips or advice for future law students?
Shasta: So my first summer, I actually was a diversity, equity, and inclusion fellow at the California Lawyers Association. And so the way that that worked was, they help place you in a job. You tell them, like, what you're interested in doing, and so then they kind of help find employer match that fits that. So that was pretty easy for me because I knew what I wanted to do. And I wanted to go to the California Attorney General's office and try out government work, which I loved. That was also a calling that I almost pursued—and might, right?
I think, Paula, a good point of, like, you're not stuck in one track, you can do multiple things in your career. You can start in government and then go private. You can go to private and then go to a nonprofit. But so, yeah, my 1L summer was pretty easy. I knew what I wanted to do, and then I was placed somewhere that they helped me get that position. So I tried government my first summer, and then second summer, I wanted to try nonprofit. And so I was incredibly fortunate to get a job at Earthjustice, and I was ecstatic about that position. I remember distinctly telling my now husband at the time, like, “This is such a difficult position to get. I'm never going to get this job.” I said the same thing about my current job. I was like, "Oh, only like two people get this job, there's no way I'm going to get it," and then getting it. And so that was very exciting for me.
And so one piece of advice would be to not be afraid to put yourself out there in areas of the law that you don't know necessarily you're going to go into. Just because you want to try a summer in private doesn't mean you're locking yourself into going to a big law firm. Or, if you want to try a summer in government, go. Like, you want to build connections and gain experience, but also it's your opportunity to kind of dip your toes into the water of various pools and see, like, what am I interested in? What do I like?
And so my advice would be, try different things across your two summers. Maybe those are different sectors, maybe they're different areas of the law; maybe you want to try energy law one summer and then tech a different summer. But not being afraid to use your summers as opportunities for yourself and less as like, “Oh, I have to build my resume a certain way,” because I'm really glad that I gained a variety of experiences across summers.
Paula: Absolutely. I call it the buffet approach. Try a little bit of everything and then you can come back for seconds on the stuff that really calls to you and that you really like.
[42:12] Cam: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. For my 1L summer, I was in-house, actually, at a Charlottesville energy company, and that was awesome. I had a great time. I got to learn a lot about the business, but it was very similar to what I had been doing prior to law school, you know. I had been working for a company, I had been working in energy. So I do regret a little bit not reaching out and doing, you know, working at an agency or doing a judicial internship.
And, of course, if you have the finances to do that—because that plays in too—really consider going that route for 1L, because I was told that it doesn't really matter what you do, as long as you do something and it's legal-related. And so you can really explore anything you want to do. You could do a whole different field if you wanted to. I loved my 1L experience, but I do a little bit regret not taking something more different.
For my 2L summer, I was at the firm I eventually joined, and that I'll be joining in the fall, Bracewell. I had never lived in a big city before, and you can decide whether or not DC is a big city, but it was good for me to live in that city, really decide, you know, is this what I want for my future? Am I okay in living in this environment? And, of course, I had a great time at the firm, and the firm was extremely supportive, and so I chose to go back soon in the fall. But yeah, I would really recommend taking all of the opportunities that you can, because you're not going to be able to go back and do anything for 12 weeks that you want to.
Paula: Very, very good perspective. Absolutely.
[43:45] Derek: And Cam, because you are five days from taking the bar exam, any advice there? Because you seem quite calm
Cam: These companies have this set up all for you. And I'm especially calm, because I've, at this point, gotten to the percentage of the course where they say, "Oh, you're going to pass." So as long as you follow it and you don't get too much into your own head, I think that you'll be successful. The majority of people take the bar the first time and pass. And more often than not, you're going to be one of them. Of course, I could come back in the fall and you could tell me about my hubris if it doesn't happen.
Derek: I think you're going to do just fine.
[44:21] Paula: Shasta, what was studying for the bar for you?
Shasta: Well, I don't want to tell listeners that it was 10 weeks of hell, but it kind of was. I think that as I got to the end, I was in a similar boat to Cam, where I was like, I've learned what I've learned, and that at this point I kind of need to trust myself and know that I can't change the outcome at this point. And so it was a little bit of acceptance of, I've done the studying, I've put the work in, and now I just got to let my brain do its thing.
And also remember, letting your brain do its thing is letting it do what it's been doing for years. You got to this point because you succeeded in an undergrad, you succeeded in law school, and now you're going to succeed at the bar. You didn't accidentally stumble into the bar exam room, and you're like, "Oh, hey, there's a proctored exam. Let's take it for fun." Like, you studied and put in years of work to get to that point, and so trusting yourself is so important.
But I do think the 10 or 12 weeks—I don't even remember now, I think my brain has blocked it out entirely—up to that point is very difficult, but if you are disciplined and you're studying and you get to work every day and follow the schedule, and then on the day of trust yourself, you're going to be just fine. As Cam said, the majority of people are. And if you don't pass, you take it again. And that's perfectly okay, too. Hundreds of people do that as well.
[45:41] Paula: If it's not hard and studying for the bar is a breeze, you might not be doing it right. It's supposed to be challenging. It's supposed to stretch your discipline and your patience and your attention span. And it's almost a rite of passage, right, because you're trusted once you become an attorney, and you're licensed with a lot of very important things, and people are depending on you. So if it's not hard, something isn't necessarily right in your process, except that part of it.
[46:09] Derek: All right. Final question. Were there any questions or things we didn't ask that you wanted to share today, or just any final words of advice?
Shasta: I think we talked a little bit about what we do now, but I think before people go to law school, it is important to do a little bit of self-reflection and make sure that the job on the other end is what you want. Because you will pass the bar, and then you will become a lawyer. And so you have to make sure that that is what you want to do. It's funny, I have family members who—I don't have any lawyers in my family, and so I'll say, you know, I'm a lawyer, and they'll say, "Oh, I love the show, Suits." And I'm like, "Oh, it's nothing like that at all. It's not like that."
And so I think talking to lawyers who are practicing lawyers now and asking them like, "What is your life like? What is your work-life balance like? What is your day-to-day? Do you like what you do?" and making sure that is what you want before doing a huge investment of all this time and money is hugely important. And I think the best way to ensure that is by picking an area of the law that you enjoy and you feel passionate about.
I think there are definitely parts of lawyering that are not so fun, right? Like, I don't love dredging through Westlaw, or I'm not always happy to be writing a memo, but I still love what I do because I'm passionate about it. I love my clients, and I love the difference I am making. And so, just making sure that the job is the right fit for you and then picking an area of the law that you enjoy will make your job so much more enjoyable. And lawyering is fun if you make it fun. So that's my advice to everyone.
Paula: Very, very good advice.
[47:47] Cam: My last thought is just that there are times in which law school is going to be hard, and especially if you're a first-gen student, it may be hard for you in different ways than for some of your other classmates. Just remember to give yourself some grace. You know, it's the first time that you're doing this. It's the first time that your whole class is doing this. But leave room for, you know, it might be hard for you in ways that your classmates can't appreciate, and that's okay, but you're going to make it to the other side.
Paula: I feel like we, Derek and I, we are oozing with so much pride and inspiration, and we're so proud. I mean, we care so deeply about our clients and their success, and being able to be here with you and to hear you come full circle in your lives and with your choices, is just so incredibly fulfilling and makes us so happy. But how do you feel about coming full circle? I know you're in the thick of studying for the bar, and I know that you're probably thick in hours and work for your clients, Shasta, but if you could take a moment to sort of reflect on where you were four or five years ago and where you are now, how do you feel about where you are now?
[48:56] Shasta: I would say proud of myself. I think that a lot of students who want to go into law school and be a lawyer are either type A or very high-achieving students who want to succeed. And so you can sometimes get caught so much up in the grind of doing that that you forget to take a step back and realize that, wow, you are so amazing, you are impressive, you are such a hard worker, you have passions, and you're doing great. And so I think remembering to tell that to yourself is important, and that's what I feel when I think full circle. I'm like, "Wow. Five years ago I thought, no way I could do this. And now here I am doing it."
I had a mentor tell me recently, like, "Hey, half the time, nobody knows what they're doing. You just got to fake it till you make it, and just keep going." And so, yeah, I feel proud of myself, but also realizing that, like, everybody struggles and everybody is, to some extent, faking their way through and you are doing it, too. That makes me feel proud that I've gotten to this point for sure.
[49:56] Cam: Yeah, I echo that. Statistically, we're talking outliers upon outliers. I was never supposed to be here. I was never supposed to graduate college. I was never supposed to be taking and, hopefully, passing the bar. And you can make room for yourself and be proud of yourself and also realize that this is just a little blip. It's not the end of your life. You're going to go on and do wonderful things. And even if your classmates have not had the same struggles, they of course have had their own, but just leave space for yourself to be proud of yourself.
Derek: Cam, I'm so—I've gotten teary-eyed now, but I'm so glad that you emphasized that, too, because, by the way, I think it's 3% to 4% of foster youth graduate from college, and less than 1% go on to get a graduate degree. You're part of that less than 1%. And that is monumental. And I'm so happy that you're here with us today, both of you, because, Shasta, I know you've certainly overcome a lot of challenges, too. And, this has just been wonderful. We appreciate how open you've been, but you've shared such amazing advice for applicants and future law students. So thank you for being here and for sharing all of your experiences.
Cam: Thank you for having us.
[51:09] Shasta: Yeah, and thank you guys, too, for everything you did for us. I don't think I ever told you this, Paula—when I was giving my thank-you speech, I had a chance to speak at the graduation for the environmental law students’ get-together. And I remember saying, "Thank you to my family, thank you to my husband, and thanks to Paula," because, like, I think that you guys—maybe you do realize, or I hope that you do—like, you made such a big impact on our lives. And you helped me, and I'm sure Cam would agree with this, find my story and find my voice in my application, which is so hard to do. And I know that our accomplishments and our hard work obviously got us to where we are today, but also a huge part of, I think, why I got into law school and I'm where I am is because I had someone like Paula on my side and in my corner and helping me get here and really pushing me and helping me in every step of the process. So thank you so much. Seriously, thank you, thank you. I can't say thank you enough. And I'm just so happy that you're still helping students today.
Cam: Yeah. Derek, you were the first person who ever believed in me, even more than Josh. There were times when I was like, "Oh, Derek and I did not work this hard for me to give up now. I got to keep going." [laughs]
Derek: I always believed in you.
Cam: Thank you.
[52:26] Derek: And some of it is just, I always felt like you had a sense of humor through all of this, and it's not easy to do and to show up that way, but you did. I'm so grateful I got to be part of the journey.
Paula: And we're so grateful that you were able to share it with us, and giant hugs to both of you. Cam, I don't know you, but I feel like I know you. Giant hugs, too. Giant, giant, giant hugs. You know, thank you for the work that you're doing. And for everyone who's listening, we had a great conversation with both of you, we are inspired, it's so great to hear where you are now in your life, and we hope that others who are in the thick of preparing their applications or even in law school also find encouragement and wisdom in the advice that you shared. So thank you again, both of you, very, very much for joining us.
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